Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Cut the Tie podcast. Hello, I am your host, thomas Helfrich, and I'm on a mission to help you cut the tie to whatever it is holding you back from success. Define that success yourself, because if someone else defines it for you, you're not going to have a clue what to go. Chase that's going to actually make you, you know, earn it. So today I am joined by John Evans. John, how are you? Hey Thomas, I'm doing quite well today. How are you? I'm delicious. Thank you for asking. I just had a spicy chicken tender. It's a mistake in every account, from health, from experience, and that's top of mind right now because my mouth is on fire. So, john, why don't you let me recover from that? Take a moment, introduce who you are, where you're from and what it is you do.

Speaker 2: 0:45

Sure. So yeah, I'm John Evans. I'm actually from Calgary, alberta, canada, here, and I'm the founder and CEO at Everline Coatings and Services. We're a parking lot line painting and pavement maintenance franchise system.

Speaker 1: 1:01

And Calgary. I've been to been to bam. I'll say it that way if you guys haven't been up there, that is someplace you need to go. I would definitely recommend in the summer, um, after your national canada day, that your fourth of july effectively right, that's right, what was that? July 1st? July 1st, that's right. Um and uh, what I didn't realize. We went to bam and we went to calgary. Is that how big Canada is? So we dropped our kids off in Montreal at a camp and I'm in Atlanta, by the way so we flew them up there and we flew to Banff and it was like five and a half hours to fly to Calgary and I'm like how far is it to Vancouver, my God?

Speaker 1: 1:42

People don't realize how wide it is up there.

Speaker 2: 1:45

And there's a whole lot of nothing that you're flying over in those five and a half hours.

Speaker 1: 1:49

That's for sure. I think you're talking about land, not the people. There are judgments amongst us.

Speaker 2: 1:53

Yes, of course Of course, but a lot of land in terms of major Canadian cities. I mean we have five major Canadian cities, but going from Montreal to Calgary, I mean there's Winnipeg and well, toronto I guess, and then Winnipeg and that's, you know, it's Saskatchewan. I mean they're trying, they're doing good, you know.

Speaker 1: 2:15

I felt like there was a joke there. You missed which was there's five major cities but only one hockey team. That's right.

Speaker 2: 2:22

That's right. That's right, Probably. I mean that was too personal.

Speaker 1: 2:25

Anyway, anybody, go check out Calgary Beautiful and bam in particular. You'll have no better time than driving an hour to between things, Cause it's the most beautiful drive on the planet. I don't say I think it's, it's so nice up there.

Speaker 2: 2:37

Very fortunate to live so close trip, for us, that's for sure don't want to do in the winter, just to be clear, oh well, skiing, skiing up there, yeah that's.

Speaker 1: 2:47

That's a big thing. I don't do snow, sir. I live in the winter. John, um, in your, uh, you know you, you do guys. Uh, you're very specific. Uh, there's a lot of choices for franchises out there. Uh, do you want to take a moment and maybe kind of do the, the high levels? Why a lot of? Not why you're the, but why a lot of individuals pick you?

Speaker 2: 3:06

Yeah, certainly. So, yeah, there's something like oh, there's over 4,000 franchisors in the United States and another 1,500 in Canada, and Everline's really been a fast-growing story for a reason, and I think largely because one we're a service-based franchise, so you can you start off, you can start off lean People getting into franchising. A lot of them they're looking to, you know, go and start and build their own business for themselves, while, you know, utilizing the model that a franchise systems offers, and support, of course, ongoing, and so with Everline we're a reasonable starting cost. But then you also, so that makes it accessible. But also, too, we service business to business clients, b2b clients, which is a very different type of client base than a B2C. That's very transactional. Those who are strong at, you know, building relationships with clients and things like that. We tick that box in that sense there.

Speaker 2: 4:06

But then, finally, I would say our business model, while proven to be successful in all different shapes and sizes of markets, that it's the level of support that we're able to offer the franchisees. So we've actually won the. We're a dynasty here in Canada. We've won the Canadian Franchise Award of Excellence the top award you can get in Canada in franchising for our world-class support that we offer franchisees. So, all the way from getting everyone trained up people dealing with scale, dealing with the shortages of cash, people and work that we constantly deal with as business owners, we've seen a lot, and so that's been a big part of it, and there's a lot under the hood as a result.

Speaker 1: 4:47

Now, when you win the award as a canadian, do you apologize?

Speaker 2: 4:50

uh, well, kind of uh, because you know, in that one they make you go up twice. You win your category and then you uh, then you got it and then you win the big prize. So you know it. Sorry you have to hear from me again. I mean, it's just a natural reaction.

Speaker 1: 5:07

Sorry, I had to do that. I feel like I'd be cheating in the audience if I didn't have a sorry joke somewhere in there. I know this is a very scary podcast.

Speaker 2: 5:28

I don't know if you're aware of this, but there is actually a law in Canada that states that if you say sorry after a vehicle, accident.

Speaker 1: 5:31

It's actually not an admission of guilt, so it's a natural reaction that we have. That's funny, because he said sorry, which indicates guilt. In the US, that's definitely a mis-. Oh, yeah, for sure. No, no, no, that's just how we are. I said sorry because I knew I'd have to sue you later and you seem nice. That's why I said it. I would change the narrative on that pretty quickly, exactly, but this podcast is not so much about what you do and why you guys are great at it, it's more about your journey yourself and the metaphoric ties you've had to cut in your own journey to get there.

Speaker 1: 5:57

So before we get to that though, just define success on your own terms.

Speaker 2: 6:03

To me, success is achieving what you've set out to achieve. And to go and place your initial vision from three years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, looking back to that person as to who you were, and they said listen, this is what I want to go out and set out and do, going out and actively working towards it. And then when you get to the, I mean, there's never another side to it. The battle always continues, but when you do go and reflect on the journey that you're able to, you know, quantifiably and qualitatively say I set out what I wanted to achieve and that was, you know, it's been amazing from starting from Everline, from my backyard, fresh out of university it was 23 when I started it and 37 now.

Speaker 2: 6:55

And you know what the vision that we had set out was that we'd be known as the company that changed everything in the industry. And we were absolutely which was a big thing to say when you were, you know, working out of your house in Northeast Calgary, that kind of thing. And now, yeah, no, we're now. We're a significant force in our industry as a result, which is pretty cool.

Speaker 1: 7:15

You know you said that maybe you know you need some self-reflection, like I don't actually there's a I don't think I define what I want to be three, five years from now. It's interesting, it's something to dive into because it's like, oh, I got to commit to that. Do I want to be a podcaster three to five years? No, no, for that Do I want to. And it's funny because I don't think I could clearly answer that and I think it's a great starting point.

Speaker 2: 7:37

Well, you can't. It's actually, it's extremely difficult. It it's extremely difficult. It's setting out the further the vision goes, the fuzzier the picture is right and it does have to be constantly revised. So we utilize the EOS system, the entrepreneurial operating system from the book Traction in our company, and that's actually a part of it. It's that you set out the vision of what do you want to be known as, and every year we do well, I guess every quarter, we review it and then you are able to actually adjust the moving target of where you're going to be in five years, 10 years, whatever it is, and then you work backward from there.

Speaker 2: 8:21

Okay, so today, to me here, right now, today, that five-year goal seems awesome. I would love to be there. So what needs to happen by year three for me to be, you know, on pace or on track to get that goal? What needs to happen at year, at the end of this year, to get me close to that year three goal? What needs to happen this quarter to get me closer to that year, and this week, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 8:41

So it's a it's a cool process to go through and I'm saying just even picking one son to follow, right, you know it's going to be a marketing for us. We're a marketing agency, we have a you know podcast, that there's a pivot we're moving to for something else and it's like, yeah, you know such a personal brand versus company brand and how they're intertwined. So it gets complex when you start thinking of it that way and we're not going to solve that here, but it made me think and I'll make a note to go. You know, spend some cycles tomorrow on it. So thank you for that. Tell me, just tell me. You kind of teased it a bit. Tell me a little about your journey and then the tie, maybe like the biggest tie you've had to cut along that way to achieve that success.

Speaker 2: 9:22

Absolutely so. I've always had an entrepreneurial itch, ever since I was a little kid. My parents were entrepreneurs, you know. So, growing up with it, you know you're not fully aware as a child of what your parents are doing. You just know that they're working all the time and there are some days that they're stressed about bills because the sales aren't there, and then there's other days where you get the rewards about being a business owner and things like that. So you have those ups and downs but then over time just largely building up skills just on myself.

Speaker 2: 9:58

And then eventually, once I got to university here at the University of Calgary, I went to, I became actually a franchisee myself for a student painting business called College Pro. So I went into that thinking, you know, I'm a hotshot, 20, you know, 20 year old, I know how to sell. I, you know I, you know I can go do whatever. And then in my very first year of business I got my to sell. I, you know I, you know I can go, uh, uh, do whatever. And then in my very first year of business, uh, I, I got my butt kicked. I was uh, uh, you know I, I uh hired all my friends, I underpaid all my jobs and uh, and and lost $25,000, uh in that summer as a 20 year old right, which was, uh, devastating. And so there was a moment there for us Well, for me, I guess that I had to decide. Oh well, I just tried this entrepreneurship thing and it was a complete disaster and you know, is this even for me. And so that's when I said, okay, I recognize what I had learned. I doubled down on it. I had to borrow money from my grandparents to keep me going and I had to borrow that 25 grand that I lost and paid back. They borrowed that March. I went into it hard, paid them back in July and was able to kind of move forward from there.

Speaker 2: 11:18

But then, once I got to the other side of it and starting up Everline, once I outgrew the, the franchise system that it was in which was a student painting program, I went to I discovered the line, the parking lot line, painting, I guess, industry and decided it was going to start Everline as a result of that, and the tie I had to cut in that situation was actually security. I was going from a position of where I had built up a really strong business with my college for painters business and I knew I'd outgrew the program. I was no longer, you know, university student and I was getting job offers from college pro, actually to go and train other people like you know, nice salary jobs, like fresh out of school, things like that that people want to see. And but no, I knew deep down that I wanted to go and start my own business and I, yeah, just had to cut that tie and take the leap of faith to to make it work.

Speaker 1: 12:17

Amazing. Just you know, once you identify it right, it's the it comes down to. It's like you have this moment. Do you have a moment actually start with that? Do you have a moment and you're like man, I need to? I know you talked about a little bit like get your butt kicked, but was it like you know you're walking to your mailbox or something? You're like do you have a moment where, like I am this, this is gonna happen. I'm I'm going to stop doing this, start doing this.

Speaker 2: 12:39

For me, I would say I've had many of those moments in my career, many and usually what happens is there's a point where natural talent gets you to a certain level of performance or where you want to be, and then you kind of hit a plateau and, uh, you know, you kind of bump at that plateau for for some time and then eventually, uh, what pops in my head is um, you know, what got you here isn't going to get you there.

Speaker 2: 13:10

It's in those moments where I do a full evaluation. You know of what I'm doing, what I'm, how I'm exercising, how I'm taking care of myself, how you know what my relationships are like, you know personally and professionally, and you know just how I'm utilizing my time in my professional life and you know just making little tweaks and adjustments from. Those moments help me break through that little plateau. And then you go through a period of, I guess, discomfort and challenges, because now you're in a whole new world. Like cause, you could have stayed in that comfort level, been, it would have been predictable. You know what works and you can get a routine that way. But if you want to continue growing and developing and achieving those goals, you have to break through those, those barriers, and uh, that's always a fun time.

Speaker 1: 14:03

So once you have that, there's a how did you formalize the system for for when you have those moments to get things to take it? Because there's one thing I identify, but then you'll just repeat it if you don't actually put it to action. So the how on that one.

Speaker 2: 14:15

Um, so for for me it's, it's uh, uh, like I wouldn't say I have a formalized system that I've developed for myself. I know myself well enough to to kind of understand you know where I've lacked accountability on myself to or, you know, had been easy on myself per se. You know it's like you know you're kind of giving yourself too much rope in this area. You need to tighten that up, and that usually comes from you know. Like you know, you're kind of giving yourself too much rope in this area. You need to tighten that up, and, uh, that usually comes from you know.

Speaker 2: 14:45

Like you know, it's like when you're in that that early, you know stage in in starting and, uh, starting a business or in a new role or whatnot, it's absolute chaos because you're constantly learning and constantly developing and it's tough to identify that while you're in that process but you just start with a little like any sort of progress anywhere will make an impact. It's compounding impact over time. So, like a formal process, I would say no, but it's really. It's a mental, it's a mindset that's tied to. Things need to improve and the way that I need to operate needs to change.

Speaker 1: 15:56

Yeah, and that methodical kind of approach if system or not, is super valuable for it. What do you think has been the biggest impact just in your life? Like from the you know you cut a tie. Do you have one that's like impacted you more than others?

Speaker 2: 16:13

I would say that the biggest impact for me was discovering. Well, actually, I mean to be personally, I would say, was actually having kids. On that case there that was. I remember you know somebody telling me like your physiology actually changes once you have children and you know that, just like nature takes over and I remember, you know, holding my daughter for the first time and I could feel just the chemical change in the brain of. I remember just pacing around the hospital room, being like I got to get out there and got to get out there to sell so and that force again. That was just another event where I say, okay, like I now have, you know, I can't be reckless anymore, I have to go and, you know, be very careful. And it just tightened a lot of those bolts in that case is there. So I say personally that that was the biggest one professionally.

Speaker 2: 17:09

It was actually once we expanded Everline expanded to the United States. That was a beyond fundamental shift to the company. So we went from 17 locations to to 120 locations in under three years. So the and continuing to grow still at a pace there, and that for me was an adjustment of to how my role as a leader, as a visionary in the organization. You know how I needed to present myself and what I need to be spending my time on, and I think that that just realization again, what got you here, won't get you there. Uh was a uh was a big one there for us. Oh, and there's my cat. They're behind me. Cats, love podcasts.

Speaker 1: 17:57

I know what the deal is. They also love food, so you clearly forgot food today? Yes, exactly what's, uh, what's the tide that you're afraid to cut today?

Speaker 2: 18:09

I think for me it's tied to actually my relationship with the franchisees. So we have 120 plus and continuing to grow franchisees and for me it's. You know, what built this business and what built this culture at Everline, which is a very, very positive family like culture, was my interaction and, you know, relationships I've been able to build with everybody in my organization and now it's just getting to the size that I can't and I feel an intense guilt that I can't be there for them like the way I was, that you know I need to build out systems and processes to, you know, build out a much larger team to handle a lot of the functions that I was there, but I still I miss them, I miss the laughs, I miss all that. So still hanging on to that.

Speaker 1: 19:06

Yeah, that's tough. I mean, if you had to give some advice to you know someone trying to start a product, like there was you years ago, what would be advice you give them?

Speaker 2: 19:17

I think for me, uh, the, the advice I'd give is, if they were starting something up, um, you know that, can that? Sticking to the core values, uh, and and of you have to understand first what the core value like, what you're about, what the product's about, what the company's about, and and, uh, how you're, uh, how you're related to it, because it's those values that drive the order, the, the actions of the organization, um, and will allow it to thrive. And I think that not enough people take articulating those values as seriously as they should. For a lot of people they're like oh, there's just some core values that throw in the wall and no one ever reads them, and that kind of thing. And I think that some advice I got early on was you know, you need to take these seriously because they will drive the behavior of the remainder of the years of the organization and that will decide whether or not you grow or not.

Speaker 1: 20:16

And what I think it helps with forming the getting the right employees and the right ones that stay versus don't fit it and there's, like you know, it gives it teeth a little bit to say, well, you're not fitting with our mission. Culture.

Speaker 2: 20:28

It makes it so much easier, right, and especially when you go through an exercise of determining if you have the right person in the right seat of your organization if you have somebody. So at Everline, our core values were dedicated, resourceful, integrity, focused, value-based, excelling and nourishing. We're driven and you know, if they're everything but nourishing, they're not going to fit, because you need to have all of those things for us to operate and I think that that's a skill I had to learn, so happy to share with everybody listening.

Speaker 1: 21:00

Now, if you could go back on your timeline at any point, when would you go back? What would you do differently?

Speaker 2: 21:05

Oh man. Well, I mean naturally go buy Bitcoin or something, they're right.

Speaker 1: 21:11

But everyone has these philosophical things. It's simple Go buy Apple or Bitcoin. You got to keep it in your lifetime. Empty the 401k and dump it all in the Bitcoin and just do that yeah.

Speaker 2: 21:23

no, I think for me-.

Speaker 2: 21:25

And also move to Puerto Rico so you can get it out cheaper, I'm sorry, yes, and also moved to Puerto Rico so you can get it out cheaper, I'm sorry, yes, yes, indeed, indeed, I would say going back, there was a very risky maneuver I took at one part of my career, which was I knew I wanted to expand Everline into franchising, and we built up a great business and made an aggressive push.

Speaker 2: 21:53

I was just myself and the crew members and things like that and in that year I hired on a salesperson, an operations person, an administrator, brought in a consultant and I expanded up to Edmonton all at the same time and the which is fun, cool and exciting. But the issue is is that I didn't even have a proper profit and loss statement put in place, and so I did not understand my finances and did not understand that, and that put me in a in a tight cash position. That was, that was totally self-inflicted. But if I were aware, I would have done totally different, whether, if I wanted to continue down that path of aggressive, I would have raised some more capital at that moment or I would have perhaps slowed it down to something more manageable. And so I think that going back, it would be to take the lessons of my mentors, that having a strong or I mean a reasonable financial acumen and how that works was underdeveloped in my case.

Speaker 1: 22:59

You know it's funny. So every entrepreneur seems to go through some version of that Other it's. I hired family members. We went through this with you know, we were paying teams full time. The through this with you know, we were paying teams full time.

Speaker 1: 23:09

The original model was, you know, just paying per client that we serve and because we use offshore and we some other people. But I wanted to make sure they were secure. They would have just been just as secure and more motivated if I had kept them on the scaling mode, so they would have made more when we had more clients and they'd make less. We didn't. And I was like, let me just normalize it, cause we were, I was winning, I think that's, and they had that.

Speaker 1: 23:32

But what created was this kind of like complacency, and which is what happens sometimes with employees. But but it wasn't, they weren't doing bad, it just created this kind of vibe of complacency, right. And then I could see it just kind of. And so this year, you know, a little ADHD medicine and some refocus I was like, hey, I'm going back to the original model and we cut like 68%, 65% of costs without losing delivery, and it's like, man, I wish I would have done this, like two years ago, because it completely frees up a lot of capital that I could have paid myself more or invested in this, and so what you're describing I think happens to everybody. You get to a point without realizing you're there and I feel like I got our finances, but when you start seeing the bleed, you're like wait, what's going on? It's not until you see that bleed typically that you realize you're hurt.

Speaker 2: 24:19

Well, and not understanding that when I ran the business, I ran it a pretty tight ship. We were used to a certain level of gross margin that the business operated on. You brought somebody, new people in, new salespeople, new operations, people. My systems weren't fleshed out and the business operated at a 15% lower gross margin as a result of that. They weren't running it as well as I could. We were doing more volume but at a lower gross margin, but my overhead had increased. So it made a big difference there. So again, yeah, that's an understanding, and modeling out how things are going to work and keeping tabs on it, on those KPIs were certainly I wish I had done that earlier.

Speaker 1: 25:03

So what's the one book you recommend to any entrepreneur?

Speaker 2: 25:08

I'm a big, I'm a lover of autobiographies. I love well biographies in general. I love the struggle of people in their early days and, because you know, you relate to that and I actually really enjoy the Ride of a Lifetime by Bob Iger, so the current CEO of Disney, and just his journey and the level of, I guess, growth he had to do through his journey was a really fun read.

Speaker 1: 25:41

That's good. Not a lot of people do the autobiographies. That's a nice change of pace.

Speaker 2: 25:46

Yeah, you know all the greats, uh, uh, you know there's, uh, you know, e-myth and all that kind of stuff. That that's fantastic. But I really like reading about the, the battles, the, the real life battles.

Speaker 1: 25:57

I learn off of those examples it's not surprising I do as well, since my show is more about the journey of the guest than what they do exactly exactly because you. I think you learn more from the perspective, in my opinion, of how they thought, how they felt. Uh, and I find the shows that we do that really kind of dive into that with a little. When I say, peel the onion like you get a little more gas. The tears are near. No one's cried yet.

Speaker 2: 26:29

Well, you're not going to cry into a whole different thing. But no, I agree with you because in those how-to books or skill building books and things like that, amazing concepts, but for the most part they are in a sterile environment, the lessons that they're teaching, and to me I find it very, I guess. And to me I find it very, I guess, validating, because to sense that they had their total disaster days too, where nothing went right at all and they figured it out and it was a bloodbath, it was messy, it was a challenge and lost a few years off their life. I've had those days too, and there's going to be more of those days to come, and I like knowing I'm not alone.

Speaker 1: 27:36

Yeah, exactly, not alone piece. And uh, you know, for solopreneurs, listening, I always say listen, if you don't know what to do, just go figure out a way to ring a cash register Like that, that's it. And that doesn't mean go raise money or just go sell something, Cause once you start selling something, people come to you to want to buy it.

Speaker 2: 27:51

And then they want to buy your company and just go ring it, go raise hell, don't go raise funds and talk to go find some peers if you're solopreneurs, for sure, uh, you know, go and have a coffee with somebody else doing the same thing. They're going through the same challenges and, uh, you know, to go and uh, just uh, to have a shoulder to cry on or a brainstorming session or whatever. To be vulnerable in those moments is extremely important, and some of my closest friends are CEOs of other franchise brands and we have similar issues and we make each other feel better, so that's good.

Speaker 1: 28:28

Now listen. If you can't afford the coffee, make sure they pay, though. Oh, yes, of course. Yes, or bring your own and just be like I got mine. Yeah, if there was a question I should ask today, what would that question have been?

Speaker 2: 28:41

oh, I mean it's. How do you do it? No, I think, uh, uh, for for me, um, uh, you know it's the uh, it's. How do you deal with the emotional journey and roller coaster of of being, you know being, you know going out and you know cutting the tie? Because it is, it's a leap, right, it's a leap and it's, and always on the other side of it there's going to be some sort of an unintended I guess unintended lesson, because you know, when you make that leap, I look at it as the it's called the entrepreneurial transition curve. You know, when you make that leap, I look at it as the it's called the entrepreneurial transition curve.

Speaker 2: 29:17

When you make that leap, it's called what you call uninformed optimism. When you've decided you feel good enough to go and make whatever move you gotta make, but you don't know what's on the other side of it. No matter how much research you've done and things like that, there's still gonna be variables that you didn't catch. But then you're gonna get to the other side of it and then that's when you're going to start facing resistance and challenges or discover something that you didn't expect, and that's what we call informed pessimism. You're like, oh, this is actually way harder than I thought. Then it gets you down to that.

Speaker 2: 29:49

Then you have a choice to make at that point, and that's called the crisis of meaning. I'm going to continue pressing on, I'm going to solve this issue that just came up in front of me, or I'm just going to what they say is crash and burn and I'm just going to quit. And those that push through and go and they discover whatever they need to do to get through that, whatever that challenge is, then they get into informed realism so they understand what's in front of them, they've solved the problem, or they understand the problems there and they can work around it in some way, shape or form. And then they move forward. And then you get to another thing. And then, as you grow and develop, you're going to come across something You're like, hey, that's a cool idea, I'm going to jump into that. Now you're on uninformed optimism again, and then the rollercoaster continues on. So I'd say it's definitely understanding what, where you're at, is important.

Speaker 1: 30:42

Yeah Well, the model you described, I think Alex Ramos, he has a really good piece of them. Sure, he's barbed somebody else, but for a lot of entrepreneurs, when it gets hard, they have fun in the climb and it gets hard and they quit and they start the next thing. Yeah, and it's. It's getting over that hump of hard so you can take the dip and then continue on even higher. Uh, because because that that thing goes lower and lower and lower every time you do it that way, where you're, let's try it again. Let's try it again. If you don't ever get through the hard part and really think through it now you may drive your wife crazy when you say, hey, I'm going to pivot again, not start a new company. Um, you know they. Then they're like you pivot all the time.

Speaker 2: 31:21

Well, and that's why I enjoy the biographies of other fellow entrepreneurs is because they go into the detail of where the world was crashing down on them and you know and then. But they got through the impossible problems. If you look back, if I look back at all of the impossible problems seemingly at the time impossible problems that I had to solve, you know, it's something to be proud of, of course, and any entrepreneur that's kind of broke through that barrier have been all through the same thing.

Speaker 1: 31:50

You've been doing something. You know one thing for the most part right, for a long time and you've modified what your business is right. It starts off one thing and it becomes the next, but it's the same core product that you're around. Have you found moments of asking for a friend, of course? Have you found moments when you feel like you had overcomplicated it and you just came back to the original premise?

Speaker 2: 32:12

Oh yeah, you start to feel insecure with your product because you know, you know the revenue could be higher, you know it could have a better bottom line, and so you start overcompensating with making things far more complicated than they are and we're still, you know, still peeling away that stuff, even here at everline, stuff that I did early on, that was baked into the system. That's super convoluted, that we need to, we need to simplify and get out there, and that takes time to get that sorted out there. And but no, we, we definitely did, and you know it's coming from the position of of, you know, just trying to overcompensate and that is, you know, that's a natural progression and there's nothing wrong with doing that to try something else. But if it doesn't work, don't be afraid to promptly cut that off and focus on the core product or service.

Speaker 1: 33:07

I appreciate it. John, thanks so much for joining me today. I really, really appreciate you. Thanks, thomas, this was great, and those who have made it this point you point. Thank you for being here as well. This is your first time here. I hope it's the first of many, and if you've been here before, you know what to do. Go cut a tie to something holding you back, but first to find that success on your own terms. You know what it is holding you back from your success. Thanks for listening.